OK so I got your attention with the header… 
Thru growing up in a Baptist school, with non-christian parents, my world view of homosexuality has been a bit … interesting. While my parents never claimed that homosexuality was wrong, they certainly didn’t like hearing about it, or seeing it in public. Then the school that I went to basically said that homosexuality is one of the worst things you can do…much the same as murder, and punishable by eternity in a custom made torture chamber created special by an angry God. I have spent the last ten years of my life trying to wade thru issues like these and try to decipher what is right and logical.
Early this morning I read an article about a quadruple amputee wrestler that did well in high-school wrestling and decided to try and make it in the UFC. He evidently didn’t do very well, but this post really doesn’t have anything to do with him. There was a comment under the article that really struck me here it is:
I never really put that together…we have entertained ourselves with the sports of dominance, violence and pride. While I think that it is possible to be a humble athlete, it doesn’t happen too often. I am by all means fine with watching UFC, NFL, NHL, NBA, an all other physical sports. It’s just interesting to me that our culture accepts the above mentioned traits and rejects love. Now given Gay porn isn’t for everyone, but what about the acceptance of love and compassion as an admirable trait. There are millions of homosexuals who are stifled by our society to be who they want to be, because our society views their love as yucky, gross, or weird. Isn’t it better then violence?
thoughts?
Correctmyreligion's Blog 
I’m sorry to hear about the difficulty you had growing up reconciling homosexuality and faith. I can very much relate to that, coming from a fundamentalist background.
Ah, gay porn and sports. The one thing that both share in common is that they’re based in voyeuristic fantasy. Most porn is about an unrealistic and improbable sexual experience. Sports is about civilised bloodsport. Television and film have changed everything, and I have theories on both, but that’s not what you’re getting at here.
We need to change cultural perceptions of homosexuals: that we’re just people. Our society insists that we need labels and differentiation, but the only thing that separates us from the straights is who we’re attracted to. We’re all human and we’re coming to understand more that sexuality is a fluid thing, and that it’s a matter of what you’re comfortable with and open to.
Much of the rancor comes from the subculture-oriented gays demanding equal rights while being flamboyantly radical and iconoclastic. Such intransigence never changed anyone’s mind, and like the civil rights movement has actually served to inflame the feelings of alienation on both sides, between homosexuals and heterosexuals. But both sides are guilty, from the anti-gay groups spouting their hate speech to the gay rights supporter spouting his or her own hate speech against those who discriminated against them or the parents who rejected them. It’s not necessarily love that people are rejecting. Perceptions of homosexuals are driven by fear and basic misunderstanding of who “mainstream gays” are.
We need to work from the community level out, within our friends who are surprised to learn how “normal” many of us are, and that we just want to love our friends and partners.
That’s my take on this post.
Dear correctmyreligion,
The Bible is what holds the answers in this day an age, and for those who lived in ages past. Your parents seemed to have discernment, but not expressed well. They did not take you to the Bible for truth or so it seems. Jesus Christ, God the son, died for the sins of mankind, including homosexuality. Jesus Christ loves homosexuals as much as He loves anybody else, but the sin is abhorrent to Him as is all sin, including lying.
God says in His inerrant Word, the Bible, homosexuals will not inherit eternal life nor will liars. The fate for all sinners, those who never repent and ask to be washed in the blood of Christ for forgiveness in all sincerity, is the lake of fire. My fate was the lake of fire because I sinned and fell short of the glory of God. I had to repent and ask God to save me and become the LORD of my life. Even though I have been washed by God’s blood, I still sin and have to ask forgiveness. However, when one comes to Christ, they sin far less. One sign of a true Christian is they hate all sin and strive to live a righteous life. Christians will be made perfect one day, when they reach heaven. How I look forward to this day!
Homosexuals, like everyone, need to be washed in the blood of Jesus Christ that He shed on the cross for my sin and yours. Countless homosexuals have come to Christ and been washed clean of their filth and received eternal life.
Jesus Christ is able to save anyone, no matter how wretched their sin. He forgives murderers who come to him for salvation.
We must remember God is a God of all holy righteousness and purity—Jesus Christ, died for us and He is the true high priest who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:25-27. Because He was the sinless sacrifice, He can save anyone! Only He is worthy.
I hear what you are saying on the gospel massage, but I am really interested in why we believe that violence is somehow easier to watch then homosexual love. How is it that we can condone and entertain ourselves with sports that typically include pride, violence, and hate and call it “part of the game”, but then see two gay men hugging and call it abhorent. It’s more the comparison I am interested in, not if you believe that homosexuality is a sin.
This is a very interesting comparison, I have a hard time watching violence in general as I survived an abusive childhood. Most of my adult life has been about reconciling things that were done or said in my youth that have affected me deeply.
Intolerance and hatred are learned traits, while those who oppose homosexuals and the expression of their love hide behind convoluted bible passages (while subsequently ignoring other whole sections of the bible that don’t fit with modern life) I’ve never understood why we continue to teach our young to be intolerant.
Physical violence was just as abhorrent to Jesus as homosexuality (supposedly) was, but we don’t see huge non-profit organizations full of fundamentalist Christians trying to pass legislation to ban wrestling.
I think it’s unfair to take a small excerpt of Leviticus and prop it up as the only explanation needed to condemn gay love. Jesus was love, and where that love comes from shouldn’t matter. More importantly if it has nothing to do with you (which it doesn’t, regardless of how loudly they want to scream that it’s undermining the sanctity of traditional marriage) than you need to accept it for what it is: an expression of love. Love is Christlike, hatred is not.
A note on the supposed corruption of conventional marriage: gold diggers, abusive husbands, loveless marriages for political, social or economic purposes among heterosexuals has already debased the true meaning and purpose of marriage, not two men or two women who are genuinely in love and are looking for the same rights, privileges and protection of their hetero counterparts.
Thanks for a thoughtful and insightful post. Keep thinking, knowledge is freedom.
(Also, I could respond with line by line breakdown of Val Lee’s response, but I won’t engage her in that way.)
Dude i totally do think that just becuase u r gay means u r goin to hell Ray Boltz an HOnest to God Christian but he is also a homo I just believe he needs to get right with God he is still goin to HEaven his reward only wont be as great.
UFC i totally disagree with Go to Genisis 6:11 number three reason GOd sent the floood was meaningless violence(UFC) yes u go into the cage knowing that u may not come out alive and if u lose and stay alive u may come out unable to make a livin afterwards cuz u cant work. u may as well be dead. IF it can permanantly damage u whether u win or lose I say it is not right and adnso does God. we are to be good stewards of our bodies and if we say “hey i wanna get the crap beaten out of me and may become unable to work” that is not bein a good steward and that makes it a sin
To love, is not obscene, nor wrong. An act of love, can be, especially when outside of marriage, is wrong.
Statements like ‘Yeshua (Jesus) will save anyone’, show a gross lack of understanding! He will IF . . .
His only requirement of us, is to love Him; but to love Him, is to not offend Him; He warned us to do as He says. There are more that SAY they are Christian, many believing so, yet deceived, than there are those who sincerely walk the walk.
Homosexuals may think they are walking the walk, may think they love Him, but their acts belie their statements and life! Of course if they repent because of their love, they are saved, but that’s between them and Him; we cannot judge those who seem to have changed.
READ: Matt. 7:21-23 It’s the most defining scripture in the book! He’s talking to those who SAY they believe . . . to those who believe they believe!
THE ONLY SIN IS MISSING THE MARK!
josiah, you speak of love and and sin and repentance and of “Jesus saving anyone with IF…” now who gave you or anyone else the right to judge and speak for Jesus? you are saying that his love is exclusive and conditional. you know that the old testament and KJV was written by human beings with their own human opinions and interpretations, right? there are only very few true christians around who truly get Jesus’ teachings. most give christianity a bad name, speaking for God and God’s will and making judgments. love between two people, if it’s not between a man and a woman, is not love, but a sin ?? all mammon cries. if you are a true follower of Jesus then follow his ways, not those of fearful and resentful people calling themselves “christian”.
I don’t think the issue is that our culture accepts competition and aggression but rejects love. Rather I think sports are exhibitions of exceptional athleticism while love, be it between two of the same or different gender, is (or at least should be) commonplace and not exceptional at all.
I’m talking basic hand-holding and relationship building here not hardcore porn. That’s a whole other kind of exhibition of exceptional skills and attributes.
Super J.
1. I think the irony of the social acceptance of watching men beat each other bloody while not wanting to watch men kiss is indicative of the fact that we do choose our list of actions to approve and disapprove. Human society always discriminates.
2. I can’t say that I agree with the left-handed logic (I’m left-handed, so I offend myself) in the blog. “If I do not feel morally troubled at the violence witnessed in blood sport, then I should not feel morally troubled by two men kissing,” produces a certain kind of non-sequitur, I think. I actually do feel morally troubled by some of the sports mentioned.
3. Ah, the question of love. Can two men love each other in an analogous manner as a man and a woman love each other? I know it seems obvious to a good number of people that it is so, but this one is not so obvious to me. I understand the difficulty of my seeming bigotry here, but I think I have reason for the hesitance to accept the functional equivalence.
First of all Thank correctmyreligion on commenting on my blog.
As for our religious views… on things thats not the subject matter of thing… so lets drop it. It pisses me of when people start bring faith, God, and Jesus into stuff and then others kinda try and prove the other person wrong.
To the subject matter.. I would have to say that human as a whole have always been attracted to violence. Example the Roman Gladiators, and other various forms of violent entertainment. It’s been around since for ever… dont get me wrong what correctmyreligion points out is a valid point why violence is accepted but love isnt.
Even Homosexuality has been around for years, and is more prevalent nowadays, it still is not so much a social norm (its on its way) i believe. Because I would have to say that straights are a Majority and many are ignorant into understanding or giving homosexuals a chance to show them who they are as a person. That it has become socially accepted my the Majority…
Im kinda new on the subject so i hope that helps
-Jordan Williams
http://WWW.JordanWilliams.co.cc
http://www.nowhereinparticular.wordpress.com
I would question your definition of love. You seem to equate love with pornography. You haven’t come out and said that directly, but I don’t know how else to read what you have said here.
The question that needs to be addressed is what is love? What is true love? Expressions of affection like kissing and holding hands–is that love? Or is love something bigger, something more profound?
I think the most profound love displayed in the history of the universe is Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). Love is perhaps more giving ourselves for the good of others than it is a feeling, a desire, or a sexual act–though all those things can and at times should be involved in what we call love.
Anyway I don’t really know what to say about UFC, I have never really liked it.
I could say much about homosexuality, but I doubt sharing my thoughts on that would be fruitful here.
Mostly my blog was in reference to a persons response to an article about the UFC. I think that it is interesting that in our culture today that some things that are “morally wrong” are accepted by Christians, and others are not.
Do I think that pornography is a definition of love? no…I was merely referring to the quoted comment. I think love has no boundries. I see the example of love that Jesus gave us and I believe in that kind of love. Can that love be between any combination of genders? I think so.
My point is that we choose what we consider to be entertainment and/or distubing to watch, and those preconcieved notions come from somewhere….where?
what we find entertaining is a matter of preference, bottom line. love is love, it doesn’t have restrictions towards a specific combination of genders. preconceived notions come from emotion induced by a person’s sense of “morality” and their idea of “right” or “wrong”. more often than not, those whose sense of morality is easily threatened are those that come from religious and repressive backgrounds.
Dorian9 twists my words; intentionally or not, it doesn;t matter. I have loved people of both sexes; I’m not threatened by that; I just do not express it in sin. Methinks he needs to justify sin seen. Oh; there was little in my background that is or was repressive; nice try.
Dorian, if you’ve not read it, Yeshua said it was conditional; you didn’t read my references – See: Matthew 7: 21-27; then again, He was talking to us, not you; still, it applies ……
It’s fine for you to love another. Like it or not, expressing that, in acts outside of marriage (no matter same or opposite sex) IS a sin. Sorry, but you won’t find Him saying differently!
if adultery is a sin without exception as was said by Yeshua then why do christian fundamentalists not help save more souls from sinning by supporting same sex marriage? and by the way methinks that if you want to save more adulterous sinners look towards the opposite sex couples. moreover, Yeshua also expressed that expressing the love act with a divorced person is also adultery. oh dear, how many stones doth ye pharisees need to cast upon the multitudes of sinners…
This is an interesting article…. Although I am quite confused about what it is saying? If it is saying that our society allows people to beat on each other but cannot allow love… thats another problem with our society in general. I think some how some people have actually absorbed some of the hate and garbage the church puts out. I am sorry, but honestly it gets ridiculous, love is love that’s it end of story whether you like it or not. I also feels that the church fails at establishing equality for women. Why can’t women be priests? They are just as human men are. Anyway, I could go on and on about how the church does exactly the opposite of what some people thinks it does. I wish it could do good, but it just hurts people way to much. Much of religion is a nice thing, but people twist it. Even the bible, its twisted…. Like some of the stuff thats in there, is not something a loving God would say or do. So therefore I disagree with that too. But yes, I do believe in a greater power or God. Like I just love everyone, I want to help them when they need it. If they are sad I just want to be there…. Its hard for me to explain. And I know some people don’t feel that way about me. Thanks for asking me to comment, I appreciate it 🙂
Re: Dorian’s reply #14:
How would you suggest …. just what are you asking?
“why do christian fundamentalists not help save more souls from sinning by supporting same sex marriage?”
Supporting same sex marriage? Huh? Oh; I see; you’re saying gays ought to be married?
Where does scripture say that’s ok? It does NOT; just the opposite!
You’re confusing arguments; stick to one at a time, please.
Alex,
It would help if you’d use commas.
I agree that people twist the bible, but where do you find the bible itself is twisted?
Do you truly love Christians?
I think what he is trying to say is:
“LET JESUS %*&% YOU”
you : “It’s fine for you to love another. Like it or not, expressing that, in acts outside of marriage (no matter same or opposite sex) IS a sin.”
so my question to you in response to that is give gay people the right to marry so that their love for one another, as you stated you were fine with, above, can be expressed without committing the sin of adultery. now i know this has led to another sin for you, one that you have already scriptured above, the “homosexuality is a sin” argument. then that leads us to the morality issue. that’s a no-win debate. do not claim to be tolerant as the good teacher Jesus was. nor should you purport the “okay to love one another” rhetoric when you do not believe it. God loves all, he is not vengeful or conditional. discrimination is the mammon/human realm. SIN is that which threatens the well-being of all living. Good is the opposite. so live well and let others live the way they want to live and defer judgment to God. and let’s stop perpetuating the negative Christian stereotypes, shall we? this really gets me:
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Gandhi
alex, the answer to that is:
“the bible is not twisted, people twist the bible around to fit their own truths”.. and that they will and like to do so exit while you can otherwise it’s a waste of time..
adieu
God defined marriage – a man shall cleave onto a woman. Leviticus defines homosexuality very clearly!
Yeshua was NOT tolerant of sin . . . if he was, point it out to me.
God never allowed mixing religions which is what you, . . AND Ghandi want to do. (I’m not saying it was exhibited to him correctly – nor to you either.)
You cannot claim to love others when you “do not like” . . .
Feel free to visit my website where much more of this issue is discussed.
Any other questions?
again, it would be more coherent a question, if you would learn to use commas
post #1. muirnun says “Much of the rancor comes from the subculture-oriented gays demanding equal rights while being flamboyantly radical and iconoclastic. ”
does that mean you prefer str8 acting homosexuals?
well some of them are natural born iconoclastic. if anyone has a problem with that, they should take a class in art history.
#2 Val Lee says “The Bible is what holds the answers in this day an age”
right on sister, we are going to need those bibles to start those bonfires so we can toss your swine-flu ridden corpses into it.
#3 mouthymaries – try telling that to Camille Paglia.
#4 cksgrad2011 – spellcheck
#5 josiah says “READ: Matt. 7:21-23 ”
I have an idea you slothful gentile. why don’t you read it for us.
#6 Dorian9 – sighhhhhhh!!!!
you’re evading questions you can’t answer by pointing out punctuation modifications you would like to see? that only reflects pettiness. everybody has different writing/communication styles. not interested in (your) answers anymore, leave it at that…
the man who said this was a good man and this sentiment is shared by many, including Christians like myself.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Gandhi
I really don’t want to see violence on television any more than I would want to see gay porn or any other form of porn. I believe each of them are wrong, and will affect people in different ways, but each of those ways are negative.
We were all created with a yearning for God, it’s in our conscience. Some people get good at blocking their conscience, others have to turn to drugs, alcohol, tobacco and many other things to block that part of their consience that tells them what they are doing is wrong. But at some point, if we listen to our conscience, we will seek out what God does say is right and wrong.
God loves each one of us, but wants us to follow His rules. God is our Father, and just like any Father, He expects us to do what He has asked. God created, so the creator can establish the rules and definitions of sin. It boils down to this, each of us must make our choices, God gives each one of us free will to do that. God loves the sinner and hates the sin.
God bless everyone and I hope that people will seek out the only truth that there really is, God’s word.
And anyway Josiah, since you don’t capitalise or use a full stop there, and you haven’t got a clue how to use a semicolon, I think your nitpicking is unnecessary, innit?
You’re very feisty over here, Dorian.
Fear of the other- this is why many have problems accepting gays. Also, fear of change of the status quo. Life’s crazy enough for most people, and this mentality often leads to them living a sheltered life. From within that cage that criticize, distrust, from a distance, rather than getting up close and realizing the details.
When it gets down to it, we’re more likely to want to punch each other in the face than make love, though both are suitably stress-relieving.
I’m hoisting an opinion here per request from the blogger. And first – that you would find MY opinion on this worthy of being expressed is 1) a bit surprising, but nonetheless 2)appreciated. Thanks.
I’m not 100% certain what your point is to the post, but regarding same-gender sexual orientation vs. sports…I find it apples and oranges – two different things. Competition and conflict to determine a greater power has been around since we’ve been bonking one another over the head – it’s just become more civil. Meanwhile, over (the figurative) here, someone else figured we’d need to explain the inexplicable and somehow resolve this combined sense of overwhelming beauty and shame (that we’re not as beautiful as everything that surrounds us), so they invented religion. And RELIGION attempts to holds its sway over the moral decisions of our lives, including procreation – and anything that gets in the way or somehow derides or makes suspect the “beauty of birth” is subject to scorn and question – hence, the issue over same-gender orientation. It was religion that created the sense of “normal” – and once you have “normal” then you have the chance to create the “abnormal.” Love is compassion, love is service, love is erasing the importance of the self and elevating the sense of “the all” to a point greater than the self. It is SELF. FREAKING. EVIDENT. But…scary, because this whole “love of the individual” that the Age of Enlightenment brought us suggests quite the contrary. So….hey, we’ll have sports, fine…but love, in which coincides the ability to release judgement of another’s choices, is a thing to which (I believe) we all know to be the best possible choice for any of us, so we must all strive to achieve that amidst this very difficult gift we call life.
There you go. Thanks for listening, and you’re now invited to return to the activity of your choice.
Thanks Philip: I agree that the comparison is like apples and oranges. The real point of the post was to get some reactions on how society in general can watch carnage (in any form…this one just happens to be sports) and learn to detest a display of affection. I agree with your conclusion of normalcy in religion. It is easy to look at “your guide book” (the bible) and say “violence is OK, but same sex physical love is bad”. The Bible can be a tricky book when specificaly compairing this analogy. On one hand God wants us to love…unconditionally, abandon pride and violence.
The justification of either way is problematic.
Why is this problematic for you?
God tells us to love; it’s only those who don’t follow Him, that have a problem with that – they’re often assuming the position and “name” of Christians, . . . . but they’re not.
What’s confusing about that? Other than the confusion you attempt to create, . . . by asking inane questions.
I should have been a bit more explicit . . . .
Hating actions, is what non-Christians don’t like, even hate – that and the fact that we can still love the sinner whose actions may revile us.
You people are stupid. Join Liveprayer.com
you will feel right at home.
To be quite honest, I don’t have time to read all the comments on this thread, so I will just pick up on what Dorian said not too long after my comment.
Dorian–I want to quote you breifly–“love is love” that was helpful, thank you.
Secondly, you said that “preconceived notions come from emotion induced by a person’s sense of “morality” and their idea of “right” or “wrong”.”
Can you prove that statement? What about our preconceived notion that murder is wrong? Where does that come from? How about our preconceived notion that adultery or rape are wrong?
You seem to think preconceived notions are wrong, but don’t you believe that God gave us a conscience? I do–the Bible says so (Romans 1-2). Sure some of our preconceived notions are wrong given that we are all born in sin (Romans 5), but some come from the fact that God created us in His image and gave us a conscience such that we have an inward sense of right and wrong. I actually believe opposite of you here, I think the more time we live in this sinful world apart from Christ the more we justify sin and the more likely we are to rebell against our conscience (and thus the Lord who gave it to us).
Anyway, where do we find truth? Everyone is just wanting to say that love is love no matter with whom it is expressed–but how do you know that is true? Where is your source of truth? Just cause you want it to be true doesn’t mean it is?
Bottom line, you end up sounding like you and people who think like you are the arbiters of truth. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but I find that sort of thinking very arrogant.
I like your Gandhi quote–I think that is true–there is no such thing as a Christian who is not a hypocrite. I will admit upfront, I am nothing like Jesus and that is much of why I am so passionate about following Him, cause I know how wicked I am without Him. And even though I have believed in Him, there is so much selfishness and pride in me that I desperately need Him to deal with. And I know that He can and will deal with the sin in my heart. That is what Christ does, he transforms people–makes them born again, makes them new creations (John 3:3; 2 Cor. 5:17). That is part of his redemptive plan–to save sinners through the cross and transform them through His resurrection. The call is simply to repent and believe and give up on thinking you have the right to determine how to follow God and submit to Christ as He has revealed Himself to us as the way, the truth, and the life–the only way to the Father (John 14:6).
drew, i was quoting a priest friend of mine from italy. when i told him that my kid brother had a male partner, he asked if he was a good man and if the two were happy together. when i said yes, he shrugged and said “love is love”. the simplicity and directness of that answer stays with me. i’ve gotten the same reaction from many other conservative religious people outside of america. why is it that “born again” christians here (are there any elsewhere)?!? are so quick to quote scripture for everything? is our God-given conscience and mind not enough for us to discern what is right and wrong? just how wicked can you be on your own? sounds like you’re using Jesus and the bible as an electronic zapping device around your neck to remind you if you’re “sinning”. what is truth? my truth is mine, yours is yours. it’s arrogant of anyone to declare anything as the “real” truth, and i’ve heard many of your repented kind say about the bible being the “only” truth. no one should give up on thinking they have the right to determine how to follow God. He gave us free will. moreover, if anyone decides he doesn’t want to follow God at all, i don’t think God will strike him down with a lightning rod. God is not vengeful and vicious nor proud like that. at least not the God I pray to. and isn’t there only one? what do You think? and don’t give me a john or a matthew or a leviticus, methinks God wants you to speak for yourself sometimes.
oh, and i don’t like ufc. or porn. i like boxing. correctmyreligion baited us and we all followed.
When one believes truth is subjective or relative, one is profoundly screwed up! Same goes for right and wrong.
Love is never wrong; a physical act can be!
The gay lifestyle is hedonistic, self-centered, and often results in disease. Where is your guage for what is right and wrong or are there no boundaries?
God did give us free will – including the right to reject Him, which was the whole point – there is a point of no return as well as a deadline for decisions; dangerous waters in which we tread . . . especially when one comes to realize that THIS is the trivial part.
There are consequences to our choices – that cannot be denied. Baiting others to consider other ideas is not a sin; causing hate and anger is.
Also, showing immaturity and no concern for others, for the state of humanity …. what would you call gay, if not self-centered? Is not one sex designed to fulfill the opposite? Is there not joy in that? Just looking at the design of the universe and the individual’s body, leads the open-minded to Him.
So you are the arbiter of truth. I get to decide? Sweet! I think that I can do whatever I want whenever I want no matter whether it goes against conscience or God–God is whatever I want him to be anyway.
You say you believe in God, but you don’t want me or anyone else to take him seriously.
In addition, your view of God is very me-centered–God exists for you and is what you think He is. That surely is somewhat comforting for you, but what do you do when others have a concept of God that rubs directly against yours? Whose is right?
Further, you have absolutely no right to say that thinking that their is one truth is arrogant! You said your truth is yours and mine is mine. Mine is an absolute sort of truth. And my God is just and gracious and beautiful and delights to save. My God is really big and I know HIm to be the God of the universe. I didn’t make Him up, He made Himself known through creation, Jesus Christ, and the Word. He has spoken and revealed himself and been gracious to me and I would extend that grace to you and all people.
What you are saying is that all truth is relative–if that is true, then there is no such thing as arrogance and no such thing as truth. You don’t really believe that though because you think what I believe is arrogant.
I hope that was helpful!
I did not say I was!
Wow, Drew, you’re really angry!
You cannot make God into who He is not anymore than who you want Him to be.
We all decide where we take the issue of God; that is our God-given right. The problem with your demand to take things to relativism is that the time is short.
Like it or not, THERE is 1 truth. It is His, not ours.
Hey Josiah–I wasn’t talking to you buddy. I was talking to Dorian. In the first part of my comment, I was being sarcastic to show how silly an “all truth is relative worldview” is.
I agree with you–God is the final arbiter of truth. I think we learn His truth in the ways that He has revealed himself–creation, Christ, and the Word.
Sorry you thought I was getting on to you–read the comment again, but this time as it is addressed to Dorian’s last comment.
Sorry lol. I am not angry at anyone.
I think I was writing that comment as you were writing yours. sorry.
my truth, your truth…yes, it’s all relative and if you don’t accept that, you have a right not to because i also have the right not to accept what you believe in. my God, your God, one and the same. only difference is that i believe in a loving God who is non-discriminating and unconditional; embracing all good souls regardless of which gender one chooses to love.
scripture is subject to human interpretation and loses value especially when it lights the fires of inquisitions and persecution. i believe in just following the good in your heart and conscience because God planted that good in you. so water your plants well. amen
hey boys, i’d like you to meet my friend kay, she lives in our blog http://tothewire.wordpress.com/ and there you can all have a bible study. i join too – when she brings pie and ice cream. i’m sure she’d love to have you visit her keller devotional posts. beware, there are heathens that live there too but we all live together in perfect harmony. we don’t have sir elton or ufc there but come visit. your opinions are welcome…
How can their be heathens–remember all is relative?
For the record, I have not been firing off inquisitions or persecution–just asking where truth comes from. I don’t think that gay people are terrible or something. I think no one is good and everyone needs God’s grace and I think grace comes by faith in Jesus Christ.
I was probably a little feisty and unnecessarily sarcastic in my last comment for that I apologize. I just wanted to illustrate, how my question was not being answered–I still feel like its not.
If I might be so bold as to say one last thing. Dorian, I fear you are worshiping yourself. What you think and what you think is good is what you worship. There is no ground outside yourself for what you believe, so how can you humbly say that you know anything at all much less what God is like. If everything is relative, my conception of God is equally valid.
I would just encourage you to let the question I asked earlier sit with you a while–“where does truth come from.” Don’t resort to calling me mean spirited or bigoted because I think that right and wrong are defined by God not by us. Do you really think you are a good person? (I am not, not in and of myself, I really need the LORD). What makes you good? What makes anyone good. There is a lot of bad stuff in the world–disease, murder, rape, theft, racism. Where did all that stuff come from? If are all really good, then why so much bad?
It is not my agenda to make everyone think a certain way about homosexuality but it is my agenda to preach Christ and Him crucified for sinners like you and me. My hope and prayer for you is that you ask these questions I have posed honestly and see where that might lead you. I want you to know Christ who “knew no sin” and “became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor. 5:21–sorry I know you don’t like me quoting Scripture but I love that one).
Peace bro.
In the last sentence of my second paragraph in my last comment, it should read, “If people are really good, why so much bad in the world?” My point was to admit that I am part of the problem with what is wrong with the world.
Sorry I should really proof my comments before posting them!
drew – if you’re asking me what truth means to me or where it comes from, i don’t have time to discuss that right now. that would be like asking what the meaning of life is. the answer you seek might be within you or else try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
or this: http://www.religioustolerance.org/abs_true.htm
i just got another knock on the door from the mormons. yesterday it was the jehova’s witnesses. ” heathen” is a term of endearment i give to all non-christian. just like gentiles are to jews and infidels to the muslims. no need for apologies but the politeness is appreciated. go to kay’s posts http://tothewire.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/bill-kellers-devotional-week-in-review-3/
http://tothewire.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/bill-kellers-devotional-week-in-review-4/
let me know what you think. gotta go, bro, work calls..
Josiah, what is your issue with commas?
if you keep this sh*t up, i’m gonna ask god to give you
chrones disease.
then you can have a permanent semi-colon.
Maybe some are converse enough with someone’s writing, so as to not need the pause or hesitation a comma denotes. There is a purpose for them; they help cognition for the reader by separating phrases, clauses, and ideas.
I found myself struggling to understand and in some cases was not able to, thus my request.
I have removed myself from this thread.
I am also removing myself from this thread. Been meaning to for some time as the vitriol has gotten out of control, though I hoped someone with some sense might comment. You all are way off topic and this is just silly. But first:
Drew: Right on, brother.
Princess: You’re an offensive t%*&. Unless you’re gay and have to deal with both anti-gay evangelical heterosexuals and flaming activist homosexuals judging you, please keep your mouth shut. You just sound stupid. And yes, I prefer “straight-acting gays” (whatever that means).
You question is a perplexing one. The violent sports you mention go back to competitive sports from ages past. As long there are two people who are willing to challenge each other there will be potentially violent competitive sports. As for the second part of your question, why is the general public repulsed to same sex displays of affection. Part of the answer I believe can be found in the Bible. The Bible tells us that the Law of God is written on the hearts of men. (Romans 2:15 as well as other references) When one who listens to God and His Laws sees something that is against God they will look away.
I hope this helps some.
muirnin, your mama is a t$%^&
i saw the documentary.
sad woman, raising such a closet case. she will be in my prayers.
muirnin called princess a t*(^
that’s no way to treat a lady
he must be a prat
drew is a gent
says he worships the Word
but knows not what to do
when his preaching is spurned
scripture is spent
by those who repent
as the flame was lit
and witches burned
the devil is to blame
according to the gent
love is spoken
but sin is the charge
and so the bard must depart
excuse me administrator you forgot to modify muirnin’s comment – he was the first perpetrator wasn’t he?
unless muirnin is one of the administrators?
while you’re at it, please change the last line of my poem to:
and so the bard must fart
That’s a very interesting thought. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you Dorian.
perhaps muirnin is the administrators lover on the down-low.
my apologies to all re. the flatulent bard line. it’s a better alliteration but i’ll keep the original line…
Seeing men beat each other up is ideal. Seeing them kiss is not. The reason being that this is how it was meant to be. The struggles of good vs evil requires violence, which is why God has predisposed men to violence. If men were constantly going around kissing, there could be no virtue in the world. Virtue can only be accomplished by struggle, whereas evil is accomplished by laziness. The laziness of pastors who are too cowardly to fight against the homosexual moffia is destroying the moral fabric of society, not only because homosexuality is itself immoral, but because the manliness necessary to the establishment of virtue is also eroded by its widespread acceptance within society.
i’m not homosexual but i’d pick men kissing over discriminating bigots on their high horses saddled with their pulpits and carrying their righteous swords, ready to strike for the protection of “virtue”. the struggle of good vs evil is the convenient war cry used by religious extremists whose Gods anoint or “predispose” violence. if not homosexuality, then some other evil or immoral aspect of man near or far is the enemy. hey, to each his own ideals but i don’t buy that violence is the necessary path to virtue. you’re saying that it’s okay to break one of the commandments for the sake of morals according to?? certainly not Jesus. talk to the jihadists, they can really relate to this. different bibles but same hate agenda. accomplishments thru evil require a lot of hard work. hitler was a workaholic.
I am going to say this once. Religion is dumb and it is ignorant, I am sorry but I don’t mean to offend anyone. But seriously I am so sick of it, it has hurt so many people throughout history and needs to be gone with now. God does NOT exist…. Its part of someones physiological statisfaction to have a God to talk to when no one else is around at that current time. He does not EXIST. The church is very forceful and is a very misguided institution. Uh and people there is no such things as sins so get over it! I agree morals are important, WITHOUT religion it is key to make that distinction. You don’t want to bad things, because it will hurt others and not some God. Honestly people who say that homosexuality is a sin and that homosexual marriage should not be allowed and is not equal are just completely ignorant. The church and religionputs people in cookie cutters and says “You must live this way” Screw that, everyone is their own person and thats what makes them beautiful, of course morals to SOME extent are important, so if someone was a terrorist well thats not a necessarily beautiful quality, but they are still a person. I am so sick and tired of bigotry it makes me want to throw up on the pope, which I would if I got the chance. The church has committed so many wrongs in the past and CURRENT TIME, and it just keeps happening. Jewish people during the black plague, Muslims during the crusades, and now homosexuals, there have been other events too, and YEA the church still does discriminate against women. And YEA I dislike Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, immensely too because they do the same EXACT thing, but I am just making a comparison to what the church has done. I am so sick and tired of this, religion needs to be gone if we want the earth to be a better place.
And I want to make it clear that I don’t HATE anything, because hate is a strong would. I just have the level before this of distaste.
My disgust for the Catholic church and many religions is on such a high level right now.
alex, religion is not bad, it’s the fanatic flock that makes it “bad’. nobody but the those in denial can refute the fact that religious fanatics and bigots have caused an inordinate number of human suffering and destruction on this earth.
Yea but it is still bad, the bible is a very bad thing. You don’t see homosexuals equally represented in it do you, how about the Qu’ran? No. Same with women, yes even in the bible too, the only deciple Jesus had that was a woman and actually wasn’t even a true diciple was Mary Magdalen where as their were lots of men. And no female priests, too. I still argue that religion is a very bad thing, it can make people do good things, but that is a false sense of security to do good things. God doesn’t exist, and then its just like they are claiming everything in God words and it makes me sick, because people actually believe that junk. It makes me very upset. Have a good night 🙂
It doesn’t represent everyone equally it is a faliure to trying to be moral. This is where humanism is a great thing and can fill in those gaps.